Marilyn Manson is Our Problem

At the time of writing this article, the news of Marilyn Manson’s abuse in some of his previous relationships is well and truly out there. And of course a lot of people have been talking about it. Discussion ranges from the debate of whether to support him or not, should the allegations be believed, when/if they should be believed, cancel culture, domestic violence ignored if someone is rich and famous and so on. As well as this a common sentiment in discussions in online goth and alternative spaces has been along the lines of “Why are we even talking about this? Marilyn Manson isn’t goth!”

Why are we talking about someone who isn’t goth and doesn’t make goth music? Because like it or not Marilyn Manson is our problem. Burying our heads in the sand behind a wall of “not goth so he is irrelevant” does not solve this problem.

Why is Marilyn Manson a problem within the goth subculture?

We never asked for Marilyn Manson to be associated with goth. Most of us never told people he was. I consider myself fortunate to have gotten into goth at a time where he wasn’t considered goth just yet. For me he was just another artist played on JJJ radio which played a lot of alternative music. So for me he was an alternative rocker among the mix of alternative music that was popular on the fringes at the time. The first song I knew by him was his cover of Sweet Dreams.

As we got closer to the year 2000 he was marketed as goth more and more by the record company and media at the time. I see it as the album Antichrist Superstar when this really began to get rolling and Mechanical Animals was where it was well and truly cemented. If you were a kid who felt like an outsider having the mainstream media push this artist who spoke to you and was called goth… you must be a goth too. Plus Marilyn Manson was pushed alongside other edgy alternative artists like Nine Inch Nails and a slew of rising nu metal bands. The waters were muddied enough so a lot of those were conflated into goth as well.

We need to remember that in the mid-late 90s the internet wasn’t a thing like it is today. Misinformation by modern standards was rife and the information you had was only as good as your local scene’s access to it. So it relied heavily on record stores/mail order CDs, underground/DIY zines and local DJs. To further complicate things this was the time when industrial and EBM was taking over clubs as goth music got pushed more and more into a dark corner. Marilyn Manson’s music is very comparable to industrial music plus working alongside Nine Inch Nails added some credibility in that direction too.

If your local DJ played Marilyn Manson because people liked it at “goth” events, people would equate it with being goth if they didn’t know any better. To be fair goth events have always played some non-goth music as there wasn’t a lot of it in the past plus other music helped broaden the appeal of the events. You have to keep venues happy or they won’t let you run your night, a big part of why goth and industrial/EBM were pushed together so heavily in the 90s to boost lagging numbers. But to be fair most goth nights played some early industrial anyway as it complimented goth music well.

As you can see a perfect storm is brewing. Outside media influence plus getting play within goth… no, at this point calling it goth is a disservice to goth. I’m going to use dark alternative for these types of events because goth played such a little part. We are well beyond the days of using goth as an umbrella term like it was in the 90s.

So we have outside media influence and Marilyn Manson being played at dark alternative events. This creates confusion with a lot of new people to the scene, especially if they started via Marilyn Manson as a gateway, especially if they hear it at their local club. There is no coincidence to the sudden influx of metalheads into goth spaces that happened late 90s/early 00s as music friendly to them was played more - Marilyn Manson included. So not only is there less goth music being played but also a lot of new people calling themselves goths who have no idea what goth really is.

If things are that confusing in cities where a local goth/dark alternative scene exists, imagine how it must be for a kid in a place with access to none of that and only the mainstream media to tell them what goth is. A lot of misinformation and no one can oppose or correct it.

It took a long time for information to become close to uniform on the internet about goth music, What we consider to count regarding goth music today is a result of general worldwide consensus fronted by well known people in the goth scene to give it credibility. Problem is those people are really only known well in the goth scene, they aren’t in the mainstream. A lot of misinformation needed to be debunked and a lot still needs to be refuted. It is a constant struggle of teaching people what the goth subculture is about and how Marilyn Manson (and similar artists) are not goth music.

The mainstream media still pushes Marilyn Manson as not only being one of us but also representing us to this day. This is why Marilyn Manson is our problem as we have to undo the misinformation that forces him upon us.

What can we do about it?

We didn’t choose to have Marilyn Manson thrust upon us. But like anyone who outsiders listen to who is clueless about goth (I’m looking at you fashion only instagrammers and sponsor hungry social media influencers) we have to fix the damage done. If we don’t the misinformation gets so big people think it is the truth.

If anyone makes us look bad we have to make it clear they do not represent or speak for us. If people think they represent us we have to educate them otherwise. We aren’t going to get as voice in the mainstream media but if an opportunity is there we have to use it. This is why it is important for goths who have built a following online to use it for the good of the goth subculture. Sure, it may cost you some subscribers because the truth can hurt but in the long run you’ll build respect, credibility and a sense of solidarity within the worldwide goth subculture. That has to be worth something.

Of course this doesn’t say anything about whether Marilyn Manson’s music is actually any good. In the end music taste is up to the listener. But for many it is very easy to dismiss an artist they don’t actually like. It gets very hard to do so if you like their work and have a personal connection to it.

Then comes personal actions like withdrawing support or “cancelling” then as the trendy buzzword is so rife now.

Cancel culture

Even saying the word “cancel” is like waving a flag in front of a bull to some people - they go nuts over it! This is why I prefer to handle things in a different way. But lets look at what cancel culture is first.

As far as I understand it, cancel culture refers to the process of boycotting a person or brand on a mass scale for a reason seen as socially, ethically or legally wrong. The key here is the process doesn’t just mean cancelling them yourself but actively pressuring others to cancel them too. I don’t think it is right to pressure people to cancel someone, that is no better than a religion forcing its morals onto people outside their religion.

What I prefer to do is look at the evidence available, decide for myself then I choose whether to support or not and allow for possible nuances. I prefer the approach of “I choose not to support” and let others decide for themselves. I’ll talk more about this sort of thing in general later.

The evidence

Some people are willing to ban Marilyn Manson, others can separate the artist from the art, others prefer to wait to see what happens in court. I’m going to get a bit social justice-ish here but I want it made clear whatever you decide is up to you. I’m just explaining how I see it and how it can lead to some potential dangers for the goth and alternative community. This ties into how I made my decision not to support but you may see it differently.

For those of you who haven’t immediately ragequit reading the article at the mention of “social justice”, I shall continue. For me Evan Rachel Woods coming forward about an unnamed abuser last year and people analysing the situation working out it was when she was with Marilyn Manson was a red flag before it came to a head recently. I keep a list of problematic bands for my personal use as a DJ and Marilyn Manson was on it in the “keep an eye on” category. At the time I decided I wouldn’t play Marilyn Manson voluntarily but if someone requested it I would. A soft ban of sorts. Marilyn Manson is very popular in Adelaide and I knew this would make a big impact on me as a DJ so I wanted to be sure. But I also didn’t want to kill my DJing career. But I also didn’t want to profit on work from an artist who abuses women. Aaaaargh, this is getting complicated!

Then Evan named him as the abuser and described it. Then four other women spoke out about similar abuse in relationships with him. Then people who worked with him came out in support of the women telling their stories too. For me that was enough. Time for “I choose not to support” and stop playing any Marilyn Manson music at all.

For me I can’t separate Marilyn Manson from his art. When his lyrics sing about certain things and then he does them, for me it says there is nothing to separate. The man is his art or perhaps it started as fantasy but it became reality. I choose not to support that.

As for the courts… domestic violence is notoriously hard to prove, especially years after the fact.I highly doubt even if it goes to court that anything will happen. Rockstars don’t tend to be penalised because throwing money at problems tends to fix them. The game is rigged heavily in favour of the abuser. So for me the legal proceedings are irrelevant as not enough evidence or an out of court settlement does not mean innocence.

Siding with the enemy

Another thing I have seen a lot of people say in alternative/goth spaces online is things like “Look at the guy. They knew what they were getting into. Are you at all surprised?”

FUCK. YOU.

Are you really going to side with the satanic panic bible thumpers on this one? If you really are a participant in alternative culture of any type, you know we can’t judge people on appearances. You know there are many dark themes explored in music we like. That is what “they” do to us and how dare you adopt that attitude against us. The abused women had no idea what he was going to be like. When you say things like that, remember outsiders see him as representing us. You are saying we are like that too.

You are feeding the narrative that we are bad and they were right about us all along. We are not the Columbine shooters. We are not that group of vampire wannabees who murdered a bunch of people. We are not Marilyn Manson!

Problematic Bands and Artists

I said I’d talk about it later and here it is. Marilyn Manson certainly counts under how I categorise them so I want to talk about my process a bit as the list feels like it is growing longer by the month at this point. I also know this is a contentious issue as in Gothquisition 4 the mere mention that there was a controversy with Sonsombre was enough for some people to go ape shit at me. How dare I mention a thing that happened happened! I’m right here if you choose to come for me again.

I am not going to publish my complete list here but I will mention a couple of bands in the discussion. I made the list because I don’t want to give airplay to bands I see as a problem and whenever I list it people get argumentative that their favourite band is there or that a band isn’t on there that should be. I don’t know the back story of every artist on the planet but learning new information can mean a re-evaluation of things.

Numerous times I have had to put bands I like on the list and it kills me to do it. But in good conscience I feel I can’t support them knowing what I know. Is it enough for other people to do the same? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I’m not going to force my choices onto anyone but if someone asks why I will tell them. In turn, no one can force me to support a band I don’t want to support.

Some major bands are on that list that have been with me for years, Ministry I have loved since I was a teenager but then I learned what Al did with women and he even admits it in his book. The good of supporting Antifa for me does not cancel out the bad.

The first band I put on the list was Combichrist. In fact the list started as I was talking to people about how problematic a lot of industrial bands can be and it expanded to some outside genres. I even have a couple of individual songs that stick out vs their volume of work. The Cure’s Why Can’t I Be You I refuse to play because there is blatant blackface in the music video. Don’t believe me? Look it up, it’s on youtube. Yet the rest of their music is ok aside from Lovecats because fuck Lovecats. Of course Christian Death’s Romeo’s Distress is on there too for use of the N word.

“But what about Siouxsie? She wore a Swastika!” you say. Yes, but unlike blatant fascist artists like Death In June or Radio Werewolf she was not a fascist. Punk symbolism looked at through a modern perspective can be pretty messed up but they had their reasons. What better middle finger to the greatest generation than to adopt the symbols of the things they fought? She did talk about it being a bad idea later and also wore a star of David later. This happened with industrial music too but in the modern day such symbolism for shock tactics falls flat and comes off as support instead. An artist can recover from these things if they do it right but the key thing is not to do it again.

The way I see it Siouxsie made the mistake, admitted it, atoned for it and moved on. Compare this to Death In June who are deliberately enigmatic about it or to And One who cried hacker to bury their conspiracy theory misdeeds and were found out when they didn’t cover all their tracks.

For me DJing, I go with an outright ban and a soft ban. Note that this is a self imposed ban on myself, not for anyone else. If someone else wants to play an artist I am not willing to that is fine. A soft ban is an artist I’m keeping an eye on or has done something that is worth watching to see if a pattern of behaviour emerges. Those artists I won’t choose to play but might if requested. I like to give artists benefit of the doubt if they mess up once or twice depending on how they handle it. As I said before, an artist can recover if they handle owning the mistake well and don’t do it again.

An interesting exception who is on my list but I play anyway is David Bowie. There are a few stories of him sleeping with underage fans many years ago which is a problem. It would get someone in a lot of hot water today. Yet we all excuse him for that as it seems no damage was done and ladies speak fondly about it. But it still happened, it was still an abuse of star power vs naive youth and we let it slide. Its a bit like how people let the racism from HP Lovecraft slide too. Some things we don’t want to let go of and we make excuses for them. We are hypocrites, including me.

Taking ownership of your mistakes

So we all make mistakes. Sometimes the apology is what determines your fate in the court of public opinion. In Marilyn Manson’s case I doubt an apology will help at this point and his denial stance hasn’t gone down well in the face of more and more people he’s worked with speaking up on top of the five ladies who came forward.

A good apology has to own the mistake and be sincere. None of that “sorry you’re sorry” cop out bullshit. Be sorry you did it and own it. An apology should also be made willingly and not forced. If it feels like you’ve been forced into it then it is already too late and people will know it is only being done as a PR move. Comes back to being sincere.

Promise to learn from your mistake. Maybe talk about a strategy to do this too. Remember, you messed up and it is up to you to win people over again even if it means eating some humble pie right now. It will benefit you in the long run because people want to like what you do. In these modern times we are all being held accountable for things more than ever.

I played a song on New Year’s Eve from a local band who one of the band members harasses underage girls. I was informed by someone prominent in the local live music scene who saw my playlist.I didn’t need to apologise but I did anyway because I genuinely felt bad about giving airplay to a problem band and I wanted to address the issue properly.

This is what I said -

“Last night I played a song by [band removed because I’m not supporting them]. Today I learned that the main bloke from the band is a sexual predator who has been harassing underage girls over many years and is banned from playing at some venues in Adelaide because of this.

I apologise to anyone who is upset that I gave them some air play. I feel bad about this and I will not be playing anything by [band removed] ever again.”

If I can apologise when I screw up then so can you. My ego is not so fragile that I can’t admit it when I do something wrong.

How do we move on?

Well… Marilyn Manson isn’t the only artist out there. He isn’t even a goth artist. Musically the goth subculture will be just fine.

For dark alternative events, Marilyn Manson’s music is a lot more prominent. But you still don’t have to play it. I have had many times DJing such events where I didn’t play anything by him at all by choice or I couldn’t work it into the set. Again, lots of other artists out there to play instead.

For me, I’m expecting some fallout from choosing not to play Marilyn Manson’s music anymore when DJing. But I am not banning it from my events. If other DJs want to play his music I have no problem with that. I am not forcing my choice upon anyone. You can still get your Marilyn Manson fix from them.

Regardless of what someone does regarding Marilyn Manson’s work in the future, it does not invalidate their past experience with it. After all, without it they wouldn’t be the same person today. Music can leave some deep impressions on us all.

We (both goth and dark alternative in general) are going to face a little “told you so” from people who oppose us and no amount of arguing will convince them he isn’t goth. We have weathered the storm from other outside problems blamed on goth before, we will weather this storm too. They will get bored eventually and move onto the next conservative outrage.

Best thing we can do is keep playing goth music, keep educating new people, keep encouraging participation and most of all keep safe and look out for each other.