Goth Subculture vs. Goth Culture

After my last article was published on The Belfry Network, it was posted in a goth group on Facebook. Not by me in this case which would be a surprise to many. I share them around enough, you all know I love tooting my own horn.

In a recent conversation out in the wilds of facebook, a critique that was made in regards to still using the word "subculture" for goth. What followed was a series of questions, statements and debate that went back and forth exploring the issue of whether goth was still a subculture or whether it is now at a point where it is a culture in its own right. I found the discussion very interesting so here we are.

"But wait, I am an avid Cemetery Confessions listener! Didn't The Count just cover this in early July?"

Yep - The Count did. I think we were both inspired by the same conversation and while I was writing this article I had no idea he was covering it on the podcast too. So you lucky people get a double dose of it from two different angles.

If you haven't listened to the podcast go and do so : http://www.thebelfry.rip/blog/2018/6/27/goth-in-2018-cemetery-confessions

Now we have all the introductory crap out the way, let's start by defining what a culture and a subculture is. To keep it simple I will go by Google dictionary's definitions.

We can ignore the verb part as we aren't growing bacteria, though some might argue that this explains the existence of Crust Punks and nerdy conventions spreading the dreaded "Con Plague".

So that leaves us with collective arts and intellectual achievement as well as ideas, customs and social behaviour in a people or society. For goth, if this applies, there is certainly an element of artistic and intellectual endeavour plus we have our own ideas, rules and similar social behaviours.

The definition for a subculture is pretty straightforward. A cultural group that is part of a larger group that often has differing beliefs and interests to that of the larger culture. Goth is a music subculture so in that respect the differing beliefs and interests lie in the music and related aesthetics and ideas. Different music subcultures have different music and the main culture is music culture. But what if goth is more than that now?

No! No, no, no, NO! This is not what I mean at all, Elitist Joe!

I think it is fair to say that goth wasn't even a music subculture when it started. If anything it all fell under post-punk subculture before it forged its own subcultural identity. Many bands later considered goth even started as part of punk - a big reason why a lot of our customs are similar to punk, in particular the dressing weird, DIY ethic and heavy emphasis on music over shallow emulated style and the label poseur for someone who willingly only scratches the surface style.

Goth did grow intro it's own subculture over time as the dreaded G word caught on and it gave people a banner to rally under. It is a bit like how Emo emerged in the 2000s. At first people thought it was just a passing fad for kids but it developed into its own music subculture in its own right.

For the last time, Emo is not goth! How many times must I tell you?

Goth at one point was also a youth subculture. But lasting through the late 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s up to now it doesn't behave like one. Most people in youth subcultures dabble for a while then move on. They grow out of it. Sure, they may still like the associated music with that subculture but that is usually as far as they go. Goth on the other hand, we have people sticking around and being active for decades. Yes, this happens a little with other youth subcultures too, but it seems to happen a lot more with goth. Goth has grown beyond being a mere youth subculture - even if the mainstream world does not see it.

We know what goth was. So where is goth today? This is where I am going to reference the conversation.

You're damn right I broke the fourth wall there. I am the Deadpool of goth!

A big point discussed in the conversation is in regards to what goth is a subculture of. If it is not a subculture it must be a culture. I think the burden of proof can go either way depending on your perspective on this. If you look hard enough goth can be either by merely disproving it is not the other.

The status quo certainly lies with goth being a subculture so I took the stance of asking what changed and why is it a culture now. Other participants both argued in favour of goth being a culture from different viewpoints. One took the "what is it a subculture of?" route and The other took the "goth has grown into something more" route. Their arguments are pretty convincing.

I think there is a great case for saying it was a subculture in the past but over time has evolved into being a culture in its own right. The music is the core but a lot has branched off that core and reached in many directions and in many forms. In a modern context, goth has inspired growth from within with evolving music, art, style and even literature. Not everything has to be a throwback to the past or relive the glory days. In many ways we have grown beyond that time.

We live in a time where being goth (or having gothic aesthetics) is a lot more accepted by mainstream society. That isn't to say the music is no longer important (it still is) but there is a lot more to goth than listening to some bands and dressing in black. The things that made goth a subculture are parts of a potentially greater whole.

Elitist Joe needs not apply

After going away, thinking about it and coming back to it, I am on the fence overall. I can understand why someone would call goth a subculture and I can understand why someone would call it a culture. But it also reminds me of something in a similar position regarding the name for things. I am bisexual because that is what we originally called it 20 years ago when I discovered that aspect of myself. Nowadays if I were to discover it as I did back then, I would probably call myself pan-sexual. The term is more accurate and implies more than bisexual does. But I have become so used to bisexual it feels wrong to change it. This could be how the original wave of goths felt who didn't want to call themselves goth when the term gained momentum later.

A big sticking point for me is what exactly would goth culture contain. Do we consider it the way people used goth as an umbrella term, virtually exchangeable for dark alternative? If so this would mean including industrial, gothic metal and similar are part of goth culture. Goth as an edgy buzzword being co-opted by everything is huge but actual goth? Not so much. In most of the world goth in its purist form is very small where dark alternative is big, even if it is usually mislabeled as goth. Would it be better to say dark alternative is a culture and goth is better off staying a subculture of that to keep people from trying to make everything goth? The confusion around the dreaded G word is real!

Go away Elitist Joe! No one cares what you think!

To be fair, I also don't like terms like babybat, eldergoth, using batcave as a music genre name and more. These are all relatively new things that mostly emerged in the 2000s. Maybe I am a bit anachronistic and past my use by date? I have reverted to collecting records this year, though to be clear it's for DJing purposes. Somebody has to educate the kids even if his lingo is old fashioned.

In the end, culture or subculture is just a word. In the grand scheme of things is it really that important? Then again, many of us fight tooth and nail over the word "goth" and how it is applied. Maybe it is a case of picking your battles and focusing on the important stuff. But as part of the conversation below says, "I always support talking about it more".